What makes people tick and not click

Emma Lindley [00:00:03] Hello and thanks for joining us for another episode of Architects of Change, a podcast brought to you by Mumby. The cloud banking platform to help you evolve your business. I'm your host, Emma Lindley, co-founder of Women in Identity. In this episode, we're going to explore how businesses can stand out in the crowd whilst maintaining customer satisfaction to the highest level. Many of us in the industry will have heard the words customer centricity over and over again. But why is it so pivotal to success? And how do top tier companies deliver on targets while providing customer value like no one else? I'm delighted to say to help me explore this topic and answer some of these questions, I'm joined by two brilliant guests Sabrina Dar, chief of staff to the CEO at Mambu and Pete Trainor, product designer, innovator and entrepreneur in AI and Data. Thank you both for joining us.

Sabrina Dar [00:01:01] Thanks, Emma.

Pete Trainor [00:01:02] Thanks for having us.

Emma Lindley [00:01:03] So let's, I think, start with the basics. What do we mean by customer centricity? It's definitely something I've heard lots of people talk about. In fact, you know, I'm guilty of talking about it a lot myself. Is this just like a more modern way of thinking for organisations or as or have we as consumers changed our ways and do we just want more personalisation from the services?

Sabrina Dar [00:01:27] Customer centricity, I think, particularly in the tech industry, was something a lot of companies talked about and that for sure is now more about personalisation. But I do wonder whether, particularly in the last two years after the pandemic, what you would talk about in terms of the great resignation, whether having a predictive element to that is now where consumers, customers are more going. And personalisation may now be more of a defacto and the basis table stakes that more and more companies need to be providing. What technology can do, and I'm sure we're going to explore that throughout this conversation now, how the data can help make better decisions, inform me as a consumer about my health, my wealth, all of that I think is now where companies have an opportunity to really step up and give customers what they want.

Pete Trainor [00:02:27] I just want to add to that. I agree with all of that. During the the the research for my book years ago now, when we were looking at terms like users and customer, we realised that actually they were fairly dehumanising terms and that was a product of the internet being spewed out for 15 years and kind of treating people like cattle. So the recommendation that I started to give certainty to clients in my own business was that we start to use terms like human and people more so that, you know, human centricity and people centricity suddenly brings back this value that people have, which is a personality. Not just personalisation. It also helps businesses, I think, hunt for a slightly different type of data when they're going to start going down a personalisation route. And if you start to treat people less like a number and more like a person, then I think you get to a slightly different place.

Emma Lindley [00:03:19] So that's really interesting. And I think, I mean, most of us are living in a world where we're bombarded by technology and innovation. I think, you know, I'm certainly you know, and if I speak to my friends and family, we're not spoilt for choice when it comes to picking digital services. There's a huge amount of choice. And also most services pretty much, I think on the face of it, they seem to offer good personalisation. But is this enough? Is there more that can be done? And do we need services to be even more adaptable to actual individuals lives? And I think that I'm going to come back to you, Pete, because that's the bit that you're talking about, you know, not treating people like cattle being more individual.

Pete Trainor [00:03:58] Yeah. And also the ethics of that as well. And I think what happened was, you know, the last 20 years, especially since I guess 2008, when people got smartphones, like massively when they become ubiquitous, we kind of spewed out a lot of technology that was almost like personalisation on steroids. And then suddenly we've got a thousand apps on our phones that are all pinging for our attention for every personalised offer and every, you know, minute of our attention. And it kind of went wrong, right? So I think what's really important is that we start to realise that it is about people's health and their wellbeing and what makes them tick and not just using personalisation and customer centricity to kind of scream for people's attention. Now I think the other thing that's happened just on that point is in the last couple of years, there's been a bit of a rebellion from, you know, generations of people that are saying, I don't want to be talked to like this anymore. I don't want to be at the end of a, you know, CRM tsunami, like, please treat me with respect. And therefore, it's really important now that I think businesses not just kind of create personalisation strategies, but also kind of ethics strategies around that communication as well. And how those there's tools in that data are used.

Sabrina Dar [00:05:13] Yeah, I think not only in how that is delivered as the conversation we're having right now is more human, I think the decisions that are being made, you know, it goes right back to then how companies are kind of looking to address this need to be human. You know, as more and more things can be done through AI, can be done through churning through data. It will be the human decisions, the leadership in these companies that are able to translate and do what technology cannot do today, that humanity needs to then of course, happen in the companies and and so much that leadership now is focussed on if you read, kind of, where that is is is on the mental health well-being of not only the employees but as we're talking about the consumers and the customers that you're servicing and what is it that we're all doing to protect each other's space? You know, the constant pinging happens internally when you're working as well, being on constantly. What is happening to that space that you're creating for the creativity, the innovation, that humanity, you know that that has to happen in companies as well to in order to address this. So it's as we were perhaps a little bit scared about where AI would take us and technology would take us, you know, there is ever increasing, I think, the need and the reality that humanity and leadership is absolutely called for to help us navigate through this kind of next, you know, transition that we're going on right now.

Pete Trainor [00:06:47] Just to add to that. Years ago now, it was I think it was Barclays that we were working with. And they were really grappling with this kind of concept that maybe they needed a chief philosophy officer and a chief ethics officer before they really pushed their data and AI strategy through the personalisation funnel so that they were scrutinising every single beep and ping and notification that was sent out. And I thought that was really interesting. I've not actually seen a bank brave enough to do that yet, but I think even, you know, especially in financial services, when you're dealing with people's money and the impact that has on their life and work and their well-being, like hiring some of those roles could be really fascinating as a concept.

Sabrina Dar [00:07:28] Yeah, for sure. And you see that C-suite, because you're right, it goes through everything that you do. So it doesn't sit in one function. It's not one person's responsibility. It's got to be pervasive if it's actually going to work. So right through from the engineering side and the actual design all the way through to the customer facing interfaces and wellbeing also now being a role that I've seen a few kind of large companies hire at that C-suite as well, you know, which is just really interesting that companies are understanding it and figuring out a way to kind of make it pervasive and through their entire operation.

Pete Trainor [00:08:03] Just really quickly on that, I do love this idea that the chief wellbeing officer is in charge of the customers, not just the staff like that I think is a really interesting point.

Emma Lindley [00:08:13] Yeah, love that. There's a really interesting book actually written by somebody that used to work at Microsoft and it's called Tools and Weapons. And, you know, and we we think about technology certainly. I mean, I work in the digital identity industry and my kind of narrative around this is often is like just because we can we also have to ask ourselves the question whether we should, you know, develop those types of technologies and how we go about doing that. And I think that speaks to what you're both talking about, is trying to get that balance between, you know, the technology and the data in the AI and and, you know, the the ethics approach around it as well. So before we talk about how companies can get better at personalisation, because I'd like to dive into that in a little bit. Let's talk about some examples of innovators and what they're already doing and how they're doing it well and why are they doing it so well? What are the some examples that you can give to me of places that are doing it well?

Pete Trainor [00:09:08] I'm going to go for parallel industry. I think the most interesting stuff I've seen over the last couple of years is in health care, largely because it's had to be done. It's been disrupted by, you know, pandemics and all that bad stuff. But also, I think it's it's an industry that's generating huge amounts of really interesting data that can be used for rapid personalisation. So I've seen a lot of kind of primary care businesses adopting DNA and epigenetics as a data source on individuals to really make sure that they personalising health care to be what we term in health care as salutogenic which is how do you treat the causes of something, not just push notifications out about the conditions. And I think health care is an industry that the financial services space should look at very, very carefully in terms of the way that choosing certain types of data for personalisation. I think that that's definitely an area with, like, rapid innovation. And it's right at the edges of ethics as well. So it's right there where you're kind of you've got to be very, very careful what you do. And so I love some of the stuff that's coming through in terms of personalised health care. And I think if banks start to think a little bit more like doctors, then they they will start to make some gains and wins that people would appreciate.

Sabrina Dar [00:10:22] The other area that is, you could argue one of the biggest problems we've got to solve right now is as well as health care is our impact on the environment. And I think sustainability is, you know, not just about the environment is about inclusion. And I think the financial services, again there, can really play a part. I think more and more people are aware now that the money is a huge lever that they have to potentially change an impact or have more of an impact in a certain area to help them make better decisions about where things are going. And so, first of all, it's about having more inclusive experiences within the banking sector to allow anyone everywhere the ability to think about their money and have it being used in a particular way. But then also that having more visibility and transparency across a number of different kind of just ecosystems and industries and supply chains that have existed for years that now have the potential to be disrupted and are ripe for innovation, but maybe have been sacred because of, in part a lack of that transparency about how things work, how they operate, how things are funded. And I think that's a real big calling to a number of different industries. And if they don't take that up, I think there's the ability here for people and the average consumer to make their voices more more widely heard as well.

Emma Lindley [00:11:51] And would you say there's a best practise way to approach it? Is there, you know, is there kind of anything out there where you go that's the methodology to use, or is that something that still needs to be developed?

Sabrina Dar [00:12:02] I think you've always still got to think about what's going to delight a customer. I think you've always that's always still got to be at the heart of what you're trying to do as an entrepreneur or as a scale up company. You can't lose sight of that, even if it's something that customers don't know they want today or they don't know they need today, or they don't know they can have today. It's got to be, I think, something that is now more and more design led. You know, it's got to be an experience that delights and you can use and it's intuitive to a large extent and it fits within the rhythm of the world that I operate in. It's not something over there or tangential or kind of hard to get to. So I think accessibility more and more now, wherever you are in the world, however you are engaging in the world digitally or you know, maybe less, more so in rural parts of the world, you've got to think about that. And I think that's kind of one thing that you could get the scale from and get the traction because the scale up then of your idea and how you get to arguably the tipping point of this being something that's pervasive is that still is a little bit of the old world type thing, which is, you know, you've got to get people on there, you've got to go find money to kind of fund your idea that can now be in small, different ways, but you've got to try and get that traction. And I think the more you think about customer delight, the more you think about accessibility, the more you think about being everywhere you are more likely to have success quicker.

Pete Trainor [00:13:34] There was a really lovely point in the beginning of that about customer choice. And, you know, the question is about are there any good examples? I think is like a graveyard of innovations and companies that didn't think about this customer centricity and have failed and not building things with that customer centricity in mind is probably, you know, the norm. And so I think building with sustainability and ethics and that kind of stuff is a really kind of important point like and I think it's actually difficult to find good examples, but it's really easy to find like a, a spattering of really bad ones. There's a great book just as a little, kind of, prompt is a guy called John Alexander has just released a book called Citizens, and it's about the companies that are winning by harnessing citizen power to build their businesses. And I think it's definitely a really good, modern, very contemporary reference to how this works well now.

Emma Lindley [00:14:33] So it sounds to me, correct me if I'm wrong, we've got this kind of customer led approach and then there's also an engineering technology led approach. What are the main considerations for founders and senior leaders when adopting each of these approaches?

Sabrina Dar [00:14:51] Yeah, it's definitely something that we're kind of, you know, kind of working through and enjoying  the challenge of thinking through right now. You know, there's no doubt about it that what technology can do today is enabling customer choice and potentially customer decision making in a whole new world. So where the engineering capability sits and how it does what it does combined with the design led, you know, you do see now more than maybe 15 years ago, the idea and the creativity and the innovation kind of coming from that space. What you've got to do is combine that with the customer kind of view, the customer centricity, constantly getting that feedback, constantly almost co-creating, once you get to a point. You know where is that input coming from and ensuring back to the ethics piece that that is diverse, that those are from voices that may not be typically the ones you've heard from today or the ones that the loudest or educated or visible in that space, particularly as women, and I know there's a couple of really good books about where women are just almost invisible in this space because nothing today has been built with the kind of female kind of side of things down to air conditioning temperatures, which I think is just a very relatable one to both sides of the fence there. So, you know, even I think it's a bit of a miss not only to think that it has to be engineering led or it has to be customer led. I mean, the reality is it's got to have the customer at the centre of everything you're doing. But there's no doubt about it what the technology can do, where it can take you, that innovation and creativity is coming absolutely from the engineering place. I love the idea of being in a co-creation space, bringing them both together and getting the best of both worlds there.

Pete Trainor [00:16:43] I was just thinking, you know, and I always think like this anyway. It's like respect, collaboration, consideration. Like I think when you get people understanding our strengths and weaknesses across disciplines and almost forcing that through organisations, then you start to create some of that environment that Sabrina is talking about. And I think for far too long businesses have kind of gone fast and broke things without that, you know, pause of respect to collaborate, you know, respond and you know, have engineers understand the design process, help designers understand the engineering process. All of the, you know, the biases and isms that are caught in those groups of people, they have to be washed out before anything is pushed out into the world, because otherwise you just amplify the worst parts of us rather than the best parts of us. So I think respect is probably the main thing in any kind of design and learning process.

Emma Lindley [00:17:38] Why do you think some start-ups? Because I can certainly think of some in my field of digital identity where they've lost focus and developed teething problems. Why do they lose that focus, in your opinion, and in kind of your field of expertise? They might they might be similar to mine. But I'm interested to get your perspective.

Pete Trainor [00:18:00] I mean, I've grown up in an industry completely dominated by idiots that look like me, and I think that's been a huge problem, right? And I think a lot of the the sins of technology as an industry is because it's been largely designed up until this point by people that aren't victims of, you know, biases and racism and sexism and ageism and all the isms. And I think that's changing. And I think that's great. And I think we're kind of like driving that out, but I think a lot more needs to be done. We've got a long path to walk down in order to get to a place where founders especially understand that what they do have has a massive impact. And a lot of that has to start internally at companies. You can't do personalisation unless you're doing it for everybody. And if you're basing it on yourself, then you failed automatically.

Sabrina Dar [00:18:50] I think it's a great point, Pete. And you know, if you carry on with that thought process, it's not been an industry that's attracted that diversity of thought, you know, and then retained that diversity of thought throughout the layers of leadership and decision making. So, you know, we've got to find a way collectively as a society and some big companies kind of help with this with their kind of investment in training and development and certifications. But governments and schools, we've got to go right up the way back through, you know, girls and not just gender, but girls have to be engaged in coding and thinking that STEM subjects are of interest, that they have a place there, that there is a way that they can contribute, their voice will be heard. But also I will say geographic diversity as well. You know, you've got such amazing skill sets in different parts of the world that haven't sat in the typical hubs of Silicon Valley where I've worked other big hubs in the US, in Europe, and it's great to see some of the EU funding that's going into and we we work in Lithuania, Romania. Just trying to get kind of just even that geographic diversity as well as different experiences as well along with gender and the other isms is, as Pete said, that the other kind of biases naturally kind of drowned out. And if these people aren't in the companies designing the products and making decisions, then we're falling short by a long way. And that will be a big contribution, Emma I'm sure.

Pete Trainor [00:20:26] I think if you're looking for the classic example of technology that lost its focus and kind of subsequently went wrong with radical personalisation, you've only got to look at social media. And like social media is an example of kind of radical personalisation that, trigger warning, is consume the lives and killed a huge amount of teenagers through, you know, advertising algorithms that push self-harm content out. And, you know, it was never designed for that. But the people that designed it never possibly considered the fact that it could be used for that. And I think, you know, as an example of an industry that grew up around technology that's based on personalisation and algorithms is the one that we can learn the most from and not make those mistakes in health care and fintech and, you know, edgy tech and all of the other tech spaces that are popping up. And we have to learn from those mistakes.

Emma Lindley [00:21:14] So just moving on to, you know, in terms of like personalised products, I think it's, you know, it's all well and good offering consumers personalised physical products that make our lives easier. But, and we've touched a little bit on this, but where does the responsibility of customers mental well-being come into play?

Sabrina Dar [00:21:32] This is a big one and it becomes ever bigger. And again, I would add to it, it's the health and the societal impact as well. You know, where where is that responsibility? And as I think we're talking about, it's got to sit it's got to sit with the people who are not only making the decisions and gathering that data, but the ones that are making decisions about citizens and public health. They sit in the government, they sit probably in the regulatory space. And you know, what we are finding and what we see everyone sees today is that those are probably not where the speed will come from first. The innovation will come first and the regulation and the policies will come after. And so, you know, as Pete says, unfortunately we've probably already got some really good examples of this, where, yeah, being outpaced today. And ultimately consumers, I think, have to realise that they have an extraordinary amount of power here and they have the ability to vote either with their money, with their time, with their attention. And it's going to be very interesting how that dynamic now changes. As we've talked about, you know, we've had a lot of this being screamed at us. And so, you know, we're like, oh, my attention is over here now because something's pinging me quick enough or I'm getting all these notifications and we take a step back and we're like, Actually, where do I want to spend my time? What is it that's worthwhile for me and what do I believe in? What do I actually think is the right thing here? And which companies do I want to be involved in that reflect me and my passions, my brand, my ethos, my family values? And that's not necessarily a power that has been firmly held with consumers up until now. You would argue it's been very much, well, we have a product we're going to push out if you want it, great. If you don't, you kind of miss out. And I think that that dynamic is absolutely on the change now. And consumers, I think, have to realise that they probably have the quickest and loudest voice here to really give feedback back to these products that have been developed by corporations.

Pete Trainor [00:23:38] The other thing just on that point is that, you know, fintechs and financial services businesses who probably don't think that they have, you know, an obligation to look after people's health and wellbeing are so wrong because they're the ones that are collecting a massive amount of data where you can spot problematic patterns right? So, you know, I think is ethically the responsibility of those platforms and those people to stop, you know, problematic gambling behaviour, you know, problematic spending, problematic, you know, debt proactively and ethically like beforehand. And to Sabrina's point, there are enough people now saying, if you don't do that, we won't use you. We'll switch using an open banking API over that, whether those people are considering those things. And I think there is a very fuzzy line between kind of too much asymmetric paternalism and behavioural finance, where it gets too nanny to a bank that cares or to a fintech that cares. And I think those things are if you are a fintech, and you are the custodian of that data, you have an obligation to do something that keeps people well and alive. And if you're not doing that, then people are not going to use you.

Sabrina Dar [00:24:49] That for me is that element of prediction. You know, you've got data now that you can correlate and you can correlate it in a very unique way, because at this point, you are the only one that has that data. And so how this data is now correlated and then using to predict where there might be problems, I think that is absolutely and has to be part of the decision making process in these companies today. And you can't really shy away from it. And if you do or you don't or you get it wrong, I think that's where the feedback from consumers has to now get louder and louder.

Pete Trainor [00:25:24] And just one other point on that, because I think this is quite a pervasive area, is that, you know, the other people that need a voice in this are the regulator. And I think, you know, financial services and health care are two regulated industries. And I think, you know, the CQC for health care and the FCA for financial services are starting to, you know, mandate a certain amount of this stuff. And having governance and regulation in these tools is not there to be the fun sponge. It's there to keep people safe. And I think working collaboratively with those regulators can actually be a lot of fun and be really interesting and set those guardrails to make sure that things are done ethically and correctly.

Emma Lindley [00:26:03] I think interesting just to bring some of those things together. You know, you talked about gambling and obviously we've seen some of the fintechs kind of blocking gambling transactions. And Sabrina, you were talking about, you know, the regulation coming afterwards. Interesting, the regulator very recently, the gambling commission has put more guidance out around problem gambling. And I think it is that, you know, that it's the responsibility of everybody to ensure that people people are being safe and they're not overspending. They're not over gambling because it's bad for people. It's actually in the long term, it's really bad for businesses. So I think, yeah, it's just bringing those two points together I think that's super, super interesting. So I think one of the other important things for companies to consider, aside from choosing this kind of successful approach that fundamentally helps consumers lives, is having a USP, a unique selling point. Is a USP the third and final factor that contributes to making a good recipe for success, is that the is that the tipping point? If the former considerations are met.

Sabrina Dar [00:27:05] Market dynamics play out eventually, you know, and so demand and supply. And how does that work? And that model still is very much based on human psychology and human behaviours and demands and wants. So I think, you know, the technology can now go in so many different places that companies can make themselves believe that they have a USP. I think it's got to come back to or the way that that gets regulated. So you make sure that there's an ethical way that this is being rolled out is that customers have something that they are engaging in and have access to. So it's got to be an experience that is delightful. The USP can't just be something that's kind of in the background, if you know what I mean. It's got to come to the fore. Customers have to engage with it. And then I think there's got to be transparency there a little bit maybe the further back in that supply chain or further back with a context so that people can make more and more informed decisions. And they're not just kind of attracted by the the new flashy thing that's out there, which can be used to mask maybe some of these decisions that haven't been made in the best way or not being fully thought through. So it's a long way of saying you still need to be unique, you still need to delight, you still need customers who are going to use you. But I think there's going to be a little bit more around that and a bit of the transparency around that has got to come. And we have to demand it as consumers if it's not ever ready at the forefront of your product that you're taking to market.

Pete Trainor [00:28:37] I think a USB for me is, you know, what is the problem you're trying to solve? And does it solve that problem? And I think if you boil it down to that truism, what you end up with is people have problems and they want the businesses that they work with and collaborate with banks or otherwise to solve that problem. Keep my money safe, maximise my money, you know, don't lose it, don't abuse it like those that the USPs and truisms that banking has always had. And I think what we're starting to see now is customers and people, humans demand more than that. You know, the unique part of a selling proposition has to be how we're doing that better and how you can measure that success. I think a really great example in fintech space is Money Box. Who, you know, popped up years ago now just sweeping those little bits of every spending transaction into a little savings pot and kind of growing your savings organically. And then suddenly, you know, people who couldn't save are saving better and they kind of made good on their promise to help people save. And I think as a USP, they lived it and they preach it and they did it. And I think you have to do that. Otherwise people are going to see through you and just move on to the next one because it's so easy to switch products now, that's the other problem.

Emma Lindley [00:29:59] I mean, that certainly sounds like something for kind of founders and fintechs to think about when they're embarking on a new project. So I've got one final question. What happens next? Like the democratisation of technology and how do we regulate it? We talk a lot about kind of ethics and regulation. What's the next steps?

Sabrina Dar [00:30:22] Oh, you know, I think more and more open source is is coming. So I think, you know, that is it's just, you know, more and more out there how people can engage and interact at the very at the very start of a project, all this sharing of information, I think that will just continue and open source, you know, as and how regulators kind of engage with that as well will just be actually more in the hands of the people that want to control it. So educating yourself, I think, and having a, you know, the younger generation kind of growing up in this world that is more comfortable with the technology and understanding it and then engaging with it through coding and open sourcing and having that visibility, I think means that that will come and they probably are going to be also the generation that have seen, you know, the downside of not having either company ethics or regulation and policy at the heart, you know, not only the teenage impacts you talked about, Pete, but I've I've lived a bit in the U.S. and just the shootings and kind of the use of social media by very extreme views out there. You know, it will be the younger generation that I've grown up with that impact. They will be the ones that were in schools and saw it firsthand, had friends, had family impacted by it. So their voices are going to be really loud in this if we don't figure it out first. And I think it's really lazy of us in our decision making roles that we're all in to say, well, you know, the younger generation will come and they'll sort it out. So we've got to step up. I think we've got to engage in the conversation. Wherever you sit in this, in companies, in public places, in government, in regulators, as a consumer, and realised that this is a challenge that we've all got to address and we can do it quickly. I think this kind of age old almost legacy thinking of, well, to change this is just going to take a long time. Technology doesn't wait for that. And so I think, you know, just us catching up with that, not waiting for me is, I feel, a really big call to action for all of us.

Pete Trainor [00:32:29] I think the flip side of that, and I completely agree with all of that stuff in terms of people power is, I think what we're going to see in the next couple of years is those radical, smart, transformational technologies being opened up to even more people. So we're going to see, you know, NLP and machine learning and AI or autonomous machine reasoning now rather than the term AI, make the point is that like a lot of this technology that's been fairly exclusive to groups of people that know how to harness it are going to be open right up so that all of these bedroom entrepreneurs are going to start tapping into some of this stuff. Now, that could go in one of two ways. It's either going to go really, really well, and we're going to democratise the use of this powerful radical technology and see some huge changes and cultural shifts. Or it's going to go to exactly the same way as social media when, you know, there were going to be catastrophic consequences unless we get the regulation and the frameworks in place to do that. But we can't stop it. And I think, you know, open banking has done, has started this movement and I think the movement is only going to get more radical as, you know, software becomes easier for people to create their own banks and services through. And I think it's going to be really exciting in the next few years, but I do think it's going to be bumpy. And so there is a kind of warning in my final thoughts that, you know, it's going to be a bumpy couple of years, going to be mistakes economically and financially. I think people are going to struggle. We're seeing that right now with crypto, but it's tanked and it was a great idea that's just not been regulated and a lot of people have lost a lot of money. And so I think the use of this kind of radical personalisation has to be done, it will be done by everybody that can use it. It's just got to be done in the right way.

Sabrina Dar [00:34:13] I would just add to that if I can Emma, as Pete was talking, I was thinking, you know, it's also probably about focussing it on the big problems we have to solve, right? Like, get that at the forefront of this and we might see it all kind of going in the direction where we've got a huge call to action here and all living in a very different way to kind of figure out how this planet kind of operates in the next decades to come. So that open technology, as Pete said, and the embracing of that, I do remain a technology optimist. You know, having that now being translated and focussed to solving the biggest problems we've got, hopefully is kind of what what does happen.

Emma Lindley [00:34:52] Thank you, Sabrina. Thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it.

Sabrina Dar [00:34:56] Thank you.

Pete Trainor [00:34:57] Thank you very much.

Emma Lindley [00:34:59] That was an absolutely brilliant conversation. And I think, you know, my takeaways from that are you really need to put the customer at the heart of what you do, really delighting your customers. But it's possible to combine engineering approaches, customer led approaches, and also ethics to really bring exceptional products to market. That brings us to the end of this Architects of Change episode brought to you by Mambu. I'd like to thank my two guests today, Sabrina Dar and Pete Trainor. It was absolutely brilliant conversation. If you'd like to delve more into this topic and see more of Sabrina's work. Please head to mambu.com/insights. If you want to follow more of Pete's work, please head to trainor.fyi. For more Mambu podcasts head to wherever you get your podcasts and don't forget to subscribe to our channel so you don't miss an episode. I've been your host, Emma Lindley. See you next time.