Work life - one size fits none

Emma [00:00:04] Hello and thanks for joining us for another episode of Architects of Change, a podcast brought to you by the cloud banking platform to help you evolve your business. I'm your host for this episode, Emma Lindley, co-founder of Women in Identity. In this episode, we're chatting about the phenomenon that is the great resignation, something that we've seen emerge and continue to grow at a really fast rate since the start of 2021. But why did this begin? And what changes are being made to help the problem? And what are the global trends amongst employers and employees? And what do we expect to see in the short- and long-term future? To help me answer these questions and expand on what possibilities the future world of work holds for us, I'm thrilled to say I'm joined by two fantastic guests that are already thinking about this future change. Charlie Johnson, Chief People Officer at Mambu, and Biba Binotti, Founder of Global Warriors. Welcome to you both.

Charlie [00:01:07] Great to be here, Emma. Thank you for the invite.

Emma [00:01:09] Thank you. So the great resignation is real and it is happening. And I was reading an MIT Sloan report which was completed in the US, and in that report, it analysed 34 million online employee profiles. So really super big piece of research and I was pretty astounded by the results, to be honest. Some of the results that came out of that showed that more than 40% of all employees were thinking about leaving their jobs at the beginning of 2021. And between April and September in 2021, more than 24 million American employees left their jobs, which is an all time record. I mean, I read that and I was like, these are astounding facts. So my first question I think is for you, Charlie, you know, you’re the Chief People Officer, you know, at a fast growing fintech. This is a real problem supported by big numbers. Is this something that you've been monitoring as well?

Charlie [00:02:08] Absolutely. So, I mean, I think what we are seeing right now is we are out there trying to attract talent, but we're also keen to think about how do we retain the talent that we've got. We're a young company, that’s a hypergrowth company, and we’re a company which I think is very purpose driven. So it’s something that is top of mind for us, particularly as we're trying to attract talent. And I can tell you from my own personal perspective, and, you know, I left a big company because I was feeling like it was time for change. I think COVID was a time of real reflection for me. What's important, what do I want? And I sort of took a leap of faith. So more and more of our people are doing that. And I think what's really important that we really listen to what they want and we really engage with them and sort of design their experience and recognise that everyone wants something quite unique in this moment. And the traditional rules of work and more importantly, the traditional roles of leadership have fundamentally changed in these last couple of years with everything that's happened in COVID.

Emma [00:03:08] Do you think this is a global phenomenon or do you think this is just a U.S. thing that's happening?

Charlie [00:03:14] I think it's a 100% global phenomenon. And I think no one is excused from this. I think everyone is really evaluating what's important. Every company in every industry, some more than others. And I think a huge part of this goes back to what's been the response of my company during this period of time. What's my leader saying right now as we go back to the kind of normal ways of working, are they expecting to be back in office and just going back to the way it was or the thinking, and more importantly, they asking me, are they listening to me and asking what's important to me? So I think right now we're just in a really interesting period as well all across the globe. And I sort of feel like boundaries have changed, people's expectations have changed, and I think those rules are being rewritten right now. And I don't think anyone actually has the answer by the way, lots of people profess to, but I don't think anyone really has. I think it's a mixture of things that's going on right now in the world.

Emma [00:04:09] Okay. So what I'm hearing you say there is, you know, it's not just a US thing. This is a global thing. All eyes are kind of on this and interesting to see, you know, some of the reasons why that could be so I'm interested in your perspective on what you think the driving factors could be behind this incredible shift. Why is it happening?

Biba [00:04:25] I think the thing that seems to be foremost is that it's all around purpose. There's something that's happened in the pandemic and people suddenly realise that life short or life matters in a different way, or there's something beyond ourselves and wanting to do something that maybe is more purposeful and more community based, I think as well more in support of something bigger than themselves. So I think that's kind of the fore fronting part, I have looked at some research around and those different things kind of challenging some of that. You know, one of the challenges is saying, well, actually, you know, it appears to be purpose because a lot of the people interviewed that were talking about maybe burnout, wanting lifestyle changes as well were white collar workers who typically spending their days on own, kind of on camera all day on virtual lives. So it wasn't a very kind of fair mix of the population. And there's also stats to show that actually a lot of it was migration of lower wage workers switching to higher, higher rates. So there's something there. But I guess from kind of coming back from a kind of personal perspective on that in terms of leadership and culture, is purpose seems to be the driving one. So whatever the reality or not that sits behind there, it does seem to be about purpose and whether it's actual or perception. I think that doesn't matter. It's what people want it to be. So there's something about a drive now of people wanting to see that there is more hope in the world, I guess having come through a pandemic, that there is us as a human race shifting to something a little more than beyond just ourselves. And I think that's a really, really important part in there, that I think it is more about the hope that we have in there. And what often happens is that we then drive it, it becomes self-fulfilling prophecy. So whether it was or wasn't, it will then start to drive it. And it just takes one or two people seeing that leap that then others start to follow. So I think that's what we're seeing now is almost like, you know, some of the early adopters have moved and now it's like others are now starting to follow. But I guess one of the other things that you see that kind of echoing Charlie on leaders, what I have noticed in organisations, it might just take one quite purposeful or meaningful leader to leave an organisation and then a lot of people then follow. So I think this is where I have an interest in terms of leadership, you know, we've often said that, you know, people follow people. And I think this is what for me the great resignation is showing is people really do matter, that people leaders really do matter. And when you've got a good people leader that maybe leads somewhere, others will follow suit too. So I think that's part of the migration as well.

Emma [00:07:03] So Charlie, as a Chief People Officer, what's the day to day reality for employers amid this problem? How real is this?

Charlie [00:07:13] I think it's very real. I think right now it is all about hiring the best talent, retaining the best talent. I think it is about how we bring people back to work in a fundamentally different way. You know, I think the kind of workplace has shifted and the way we're going to kind of collaborate has shifted. And people are really questioning, do I have to go and do that commute that I used to do? Could I do this differently? I think that you do need to make sure that people and culture is at the heart of your business strategy. I think, you know, you could say we've always had to do that, but I think it's become like a non-negotiable that you can't ignore that this shift is happening. You have to be really thinking about what does this mean and what am I going to do differently? Because everyone's coming after the best possible talent, particularly diverse talent, you know we're battling right now internally. How do we allow our people potentially to do things differently right where they work? Like can they go and work anywhere in the world? Because we kind of allowed them to do that just anywhere. And now suddenly we're saying, okay, well, this might just become the thing. And the tax systems, the political systems, immigrations all set up in a fundamentally different way. So there's there's major challenges, I think, right now for companies. And then, of course, there's just this whole geopolitical, social, demographic shift that's going on. I think there's so many challenges in the workplace that we're having to respond to. And just as you get through one thing, along comes something else. And I think for all leaders right now, it's a time of a ton of uncertainty, a lot of ambiguity. One thing is certain; continue change. And I think what's really important during this period of time is resilience. So that ability to kind of find the balance in all of this, have perspective, manage oneself is really important too. So I think it's a real melting pot of major issues right now. And I think everyone I talked to, regardless of what business they're friends and family, everyone is struggling and struggling for different reasons. And so I think what's really important for the Chief People Officer, or HR Department is really tapping into that, not applying a one size fits all, really trying to put the human back in all the discussions, put the heart back. Meet people where they are and be okay with raw emotions, be okay with some of the polarities that exist right now, and to really think about how you kind of do your best and recognise you're going to make some mistakes and it's certainly not going to be perfect. I keep saying to my team, Right, no progress, no perfection. If we try to strive for perfection, we're going to kill ourselves in the process. So let's do our best. We'll make some mistakes and that's okay. The key thing here is that we do evolve and we see this as an opportunity and seize it right now. And so I think that's kind of the reality that I feel like I'm dealing with in this moment.

Emma [00:10:14] I actually went into London this week because I live just outside of London and I tried to do the school drop off and tried to get into London for a certain time for a meeting. And I was late and I honestly just kind of got to the end of that and I was like, How did I used to do that? I can't actually even think about how I used to make all of those things work and be on time for things, you know? So I think I think you're right. You know, I think we've got to this kind of different stage of like being able to do those things and being there for the school drop offs and things like that. And now actually trying to cram everything else in is really hard. And also people, you know, still want to spend time with their families and want to be there for those things and don't want to miss those things anymore. So do you think it's a problem, just for big companies, or do you think it's affecting smaller companies in the same way?

Charlie [00:11:03] What I would say is I think the issues are exactly the same in a big company, in a small company. I think what I feel right now, certainly in our sector and our size of company as we scale up, I mean, we've literally doubled the size of our headcount in this last 12 months and we can feel it. And it's been relentless. And I think that's our shift to change. The pace at which we're moving in this kind of smaller scale up environment is just very different to maybe where I was before, where it was a bit slower. And then you've got the same issue. You know, a lot of our people just have never met. They've never met their manager, they've never come together. And we literally you know, I had some of my team together just a few weeks ago. For the first time, many of them were meeting, coming from all sorts of different backgrounds, different companies, and the level of emotion that was in the room because people were just like, I'm just enjoying the ability to pause. Thank you for giving me the permission to just stop for a second. And so I think that what we've been experiencing, certainly in the technology sector, is more of what we had before, but a different pace. And I think maybe some of the social norms and rules and rituals that you would apply when in the workplace, you just don't do as much when you're doing it virtually. And so, there is just this need, I think, for us to kind of pause and reflect and think how do we do work differently? And we really are thinking about that here at Mambu right now. I don't have the answer yet. I'm going to try lots of different things, but I think this is the time for us to kind of get out of our comfort zone, to not restrict ourselves to the kind of dream of new ways of doing things, and really look at what are what are the things that are getting in the way of us doing that? Because I think so many people are thinking exactly like you. Why do I want to go back to that when there's an alternative that I've seen? But by the way, the alternative is quite relentless and has its downsides as well. So what's the balance? How do we kind of go from totally virtual to to something then between that hybrid world? And I do sort of maintain this piece of leadership, I think it is of every one of us. And Biba and I are working on this right now at Mambu. We have a philosophy here at Mambu that everyone is a leader. And yes, some people have to lead things, but we all have to lead ourselves and we have to kind of think about how we interact with others. We have to think about the kind of conscious impact we're having. And when we're at our best and when we know our best and what we might need to do to ask for permission. And it's okay to say, look, here's what I need to be the best possible version of myself and serve in that real high trust environment.

Biba [00:13:55] I so relate to what you're saying there. We've got to re-imagine and create new ways of doing things. And it really reminds me of when I was looking at some neuroscience recently around creativity and it's like for actual real creativity, there's two different elements, processes in your brain. So there's the focus stuff that you do when you're really kind of focused and in that sort of place. And then to really get the divergence, to be able to bring everything that's around and create something new and make the connections. It needs a different fit. But what we tend to do in the workplace, particularly, and I think this has been sort of like, you know, our virtual lives, we've been in this space just on one camera for like two years in this really focused space, and we've not had the chance to just bring the whole range of things literally. I've heard a lot of our leaders saying working from morning to night just in this one space. So we do need space now. We do need the pause. You know, I know one of the things you talk about at Mambu, is the four day working week. We need that extra space to get away, do something very different, and people might. Nothing's happening in there. But that's when the magic is really happening because the real connections and the innovation is happening. So it's so vital that space. I don't think we've given ourselves credibility to how much we need that over the last couple of years. I think we're yearning for that now.

Emma [00:15:15] We've talked a little bit about leadership. I wanted to just touch on culture because I know, Biba, you were talking about, you know, people are leaving because they want to be something more purposeful. And, you know, if a leader that has led with kind of purpose and they leave, then other people are leaving as well. So I want to just talk a little bit about company values and company culture, because often when something's written down, you know here are our company values. Sometimes companies don't necessarily culturally abide by those values, and those two things kind of don't actually marry together. In some companies it does, and that's great and it's fantastic. And that's great because before we have better retention, less people leaving, better inclusion and all those types of things, but sometimes those two things are different. So do you think it comes down to value, the alignment between values and company culture, or do you think it's something, something different?

Charlie [00:16:14] I mean, I think this is the challenge right now for everyone, because it's really easy to say we want to be a world class employer. We want to be the we want to sort of embrace new ways of working. And we can have nice fancy statements and PowerPoint all around the place saying that, Emma, but is it the reality? And I think that that is what I always think about culture is what actually happens when your boss isn’t looking, and that's what really is going on in this organisation where people really stand by this and they felt really safe to do so and how you tap into that. And for me, I think it's really important to create that sort of safe environment where people can share their perspectives openly and what’s great and what maybe needs to change. And I do think it comes back to the kind of shadows that the leaders create on an organisation like is it okay to sort of rock the boat and have a perspective that might be counter my peer, you know, is it okay to challenge the status quo? Is it okay to be really honest about how I'm feeling in this moment? And so, you know, I've always felt strongly that this kind of role modelling from the very top is the single most important thing I can do as the H.R. leader is to sit and say, okay, well the CEO and the top team don't actually walk the talk, those fancy slides and all those nice words, they mean nothing because people kind of go, okay, well, yeah, that's all my slides, but it's not actually what I see happening on a day to day basis. So I think again, in this moment, that's where people are challenging that kind of going, okay, we're saying these things, but are we actually doing it? And they're looking at their leaders and seeing what they're modelling. And I think everyone right now that I talk to, regardless of age, gender, where they're from, is talking about this sort of idea of I want to work somewhere where there's purpose driven. I want to feel like my voice counts. I want to feel like I'm surrounded by different types of people, not all the same. I want to see myself, particularly at senior levels. I don't want to see people that are not like me. I want to know that there's high standards and things like ethics and performance. And most importantly, I want to be working for leaders that I want to follow. I want to believe in them, be inspired by them. I want to see that they're having an impact. So I think, you know, the external factors, I like things like Glassdoor where employees can go and basically say what they want about a company in a very anonymous way are again shifting things because we can't control that and anyone can go and see what's Mambu really like to work for in the eyes of our employees, rather than what I might tell you here on this on this podcast. Back to this thing you know I think there was  a great quote from I think it was Accenture who basically said, you know, COVID 19 for our leaders and HR teams has been like a time machine to the future and it's not going back. And so, you know, leaders and H.R. teams just need to realise that. But I do think this piece about, you know, walk the talk is so important. It's always been important, but I think is really important right now.

Emma [00:19:32] I just echo that, Charlie. I think it's as you say, it's always been important and it is vital now, you know, I know I was looking at an article from the New York Times at all the activities and interventions that Google and Microsoft and other large companies are doing to try and bring people back into into the office, into working in the space. And it feels like employers are having to work really hard to hold and retain the people. And also to attract. Now harder than before what it feels like a lot of those big companies images and beautiful stuff you know, trying to create good environments but it's about adding value and actually it's about what is the values versus the adding the value that's important. And someone said to me recently was the CEO of a company called Huddle, and he said values are to be lived and not laminated. So I totally echo what you're saying that Charlie is like actually, it's not about in the past. I think you could get away with slightly remove leaders kind of just leading, you know, in a way now people want to see, feel and experience their leaders. They want to be following and not being told what to do, you know. So actually walking the talk is never more vital now. So I think values and company valuation is important, but it's more about how it’s lived, what's being lived in that organisation. And we all know there's a kind of formal and informal culture and I think the everyday informal culture is really kind of taking the forefront now. That's what people are attracted to or not.

Charlie [00:21:07] I totally agree with all of that. One of the things I would say, as we've done here at Mambu is, we literally have just recently rewritten our employee value proposition. We called it the Mambu Deal and we basically just went out and asked people, you know, when are we at our best? Like, what are the things are getting in our way, where should we be trying to go? And they created what we called our manifesto and the deal and what it is, is a two way deal. So it's like, here's what we expect of you and here's what you should expect of us. And it's like this kind of adult-to-adult relationship that I think we need to have with our employees and we need to expect to them as well. And I think it's just it's a new world. And so actually it's been 99% written, the words have come from people's minds and the principles we've used have been the ideas of our people, not from consulting company, or more importantly, the leadership team, it is our employees, and we're using that to sort of frame everything we're doing. And we're checking in. We're saying, are we doing this like, you know, give us your voice, share your perspective. And we're not just talking about all the lovely times we do it well. We are talking about the times like we made a mistake or it wasn't quite like that. What did we learn from that? How did we do things differently going forward? So it's trying to sort of very consciously shift from what I think maybe we did a few years ago is sell top down. This is the culture and I think in this new order it's like, let's build bottom up and let's work together. We're in this together, we're all part of this journey. And, you know, we're going to make some mistakes. We're not probably going to get it right. It's certainly not going to be perfect. But, you know, let's kind of share this are success and the future in a very collaborative way.

BIba [00:23:00] I think how the Mambu Deal was done was just super because I hadn't seen that happen, you know, I hadn't seen that in other places. A lot of the time is like with the leadership team mandating and bringing, you know, bringing down and then trying to align to use your words and that piece. But actually I don't think it is trying to learn. I think it's trying to get agreement, which is usually the case is. And I think alignment versus I think alignment is a really key word for us. Now as leaders, I think agreements going on is around alignment, particularly when we really start looking at diversity that we have now needing to integrate that. And if we are looking at creative new solutions, we can't keep using the same thinking and the same people in the same perspectives we always have. We need diversity more than ever before now to kind of create new.

Emma [00:23:45] what are some of the other ideas and other kind of initiatives that we're seeing around this future world of working? What would the workplace, the future look like to prevent a phenomenon like this? You know, this great resignation?

Charlie [00:24:03] One of the things we're doing right now is we're listening fundamentally differently. So we've gone away from this kind of annual survey where once a year you listen to people about what's going on, to kind of always listening in different ways to try and really understand what's going on. So getting really good at using technology, the kind of questions that you use, thinking about how you drive some consistency in that. So I think there's a whole kind of we were thinking differently, but employee listening, employee engagement, we talked a bit about that. But you know, this idea of we're going to drive change here by investing in absolutely everyone and saying that, you know, you want to learn about leadership. And in our mind, leadership isn’t unique now for just hierarchy leaders because, you know, someone could be a formal team leader, someone to be managing a project, someone could be presenting to a customer, and they need to lead. And so we want to invest in every single Mambuvian. And say, look, if you'd like to learn more about leadership, come and join the party. This isn't just for our team leaders. They come and learn how we're going to invest in you. With Biba’s support and the partnership we've got with her, I think we're doing some really exciting things in the leadership space where we're set and say, you know, it's not all about going and learning the kind of technical ways to do things. It's as much about who are you as a leader? What's the shadow you create? Why should someone follow you? When are you at your best? What's holding you back? How do you learn much more about yourself and the team environment, that you create and how you interact with others? So we did some really innovative stuff in that leadership space trying out so many things and Biba can share that more about there. And then I think things like we talked about, you know, five or six years ago, our founder CEO here, Eugene, is a phenomenal leader, always trying to push us to do things differently. Five or six years ago. He implemented the four day work week in the summer here at Mambu. So June, July, August, we all work four days and get paid for five. And he's seeing many companies that are replicating that now, looking at it more all year round. And so he's challenging us to kind of go, what's the next thing? What is it? And I, and I think it is something about how we work, how we make decisions, how we can create that space and capacity for people, how we trust them more like just trust them to do what they need to do. And so there's a big thing we're doing right now, and I think this is part of our journey as a company, which is just a bit of reflection. I think we wouldn't scale up, everything in a scale up mode is about professionalisation and standardisation and globalisation and dare I say it becoming a wee bit more corporate. And we've just taken a wee bit of a pause and gone, you know what, we've maybe gone too far down a path that's looking backwards. Let's reimagine something. So imagine a world where we just trust our people to do the right thing. We give them the tools and we move away from this rigid. You must do this like this in this way, or you're going to get fired. Like that kind of world is like nineteen eighties. And so we're really reimagining all of our policies and our practices are connecting all that. We are the future of banking. Like why can't we be the future of work as well?

Emma [00:27:24] I think that recognition that humans are human beings and not machines, you know, and I think that is, is bringing that mindset into the workplace, isn't it. And Biba, in the work that you've been doing, what other initiatives have you seen around the world or are you seeing around the world? I know you talked about Google before, but can you give some examples of other initiatives you're seeing with other organisations that they're working on?

Biba [00:27:49] I think if I'm honest, the more inspiring stuff I've had is from individual leaders where I've seen what they've been doing to try and reimagine their working lives in a simple way. I mean, even recently I was talking to a leader. It was someone that I knew that was based in the UK, a global leader. He was always a very kind of cool guy but was a little bit stressed, always ready to go to the next thing is, it was that sort of anxiety in him? And recently he moved to Lisbon in Portugal. He's living right by the sea. And I met up with him and his energy was just different. He was very relaxed. He's got a bigger job, a bigger role in a much larger budget, those he's working with. But he works less hours. And he said, Biba, when I first came here, I was full and I was really anxious. I've got too big a job. But he said, every morning I go to surf school before I start my work. And he said, You know, to start with, I resisted. But that's what the culture is here. And he said, you know, I just go to the school, I walk the kids to school, do surf school, and then I'm off. And he's having more impact than he ever had as a leader before. And he's just and his whole spirit is different. And I love that. I thought that's what hybrid working is really. It's not about do I go in the office, do I work from home? It's about how do I integrate my whole self, my whole life, my whole wellbeing into my day? And that's personal leadership as well, as much as it is organisational leadership. And the more I think as individuals think like that, the more I think it will ripple out. So I love that metaphor of surf school. I have it myself. How can I bring more surf school to my day? You know, it's kind of like it's that's what it feels it's about, really. And I took him a move across from the UK to Portugal to make that shift, to disrupt his life because his life was disrupted. And it's like, how can we bring that disruption without the move? You know, how can I just have that mentality of just challenging and not having to move? The pandemic was a massive disruption. I think that's why, you know, a lot of people were able to step into purpose because probably people didn't want to do things. But I think the disruptions will actually enables us to, let go and break old patterns and do something differently. And so I think there's lots to learn about the power of disruption - positive because it's not just disrupting for disruption sake, but it's actually how we get attached to things. And it's being to let go and really open up to a new speed like that. One door shuts, another one opens. It's trusting that, but it all comes down to trust. I think everything fundamentally comes back to trust, self trust, trusting others, trusting space, trusting the process trust.

Emma [00:29:45] So the root of the issue seems to stem from the important fact that work should be shaped around life as opposed to the other way around. And so what are your final thoughts when thinking about this and the changes that we've been seeing? Charlie, that one’s for you.

Charlie [00:30:45] I think it starts with every single person listening to this. It starts with ourselves and it really starts with understanding who we are, what's going on, pausing, really reflecting on what you're doing, the impact you're having. Getting really curious about why people should follow you, particularly if you're a leader. You know, why would anyone follow you? What is it that you do that's unique? Really thinking about the biases you might have. The things that have shaped you, you know? Do you create that environment of trust? Like, do you really sort of think about what you might be doing that gets in the way of creating the right kind of environment? You think about how you can sort of create that network of people who are going to challenge you. Do you just go and talk to the same people that are just like you, or do you go and spend time with people who are different to you with different backgrounds, different perspectives, and and hear their voices and hear their thoughts, be really thinking about that compassionate culture. I love Brené Brown when she talks about the kindest thing that a leader can do to someone when they're not performing is just tell them and help them. Like don't make it difficult. So, yes, have high standards, get really clear, but also help your people to understand where they are, what you can do for them. And I think it's just that constantly adapting to like constantly thinking about, okay, what could we do differently? Why can't we do that? Like, who's saying we can see? Like what's what's the story we're telling ourselves that are the reason that we can do that and really dig into that and, and really write down some intentions, I think is really easy to sit and have a nice conversation like this and then go on to the next thing back to the way we were. But kind of go, what one thing am I going to do differently as a result of this conversation, or what one thing am I going to differently today and how I'm going to show up with work and write it down and sort of hold yourself accountable and it's okay to not have all the answers. I think that's the other thing for leaders, companies, H.R. people is a period of considerable ambiguity, uncertainty, and it's probably going to continue to be like that. So I just say to people, just be okay with that and, you know, be kind to yourself. You know, progress, not perfection.

Emma [00:33:03] And Biba have you got some final thoughts?

Biba: Yeah, I'd just really echo Charlie in that. I think it's just, you know, it does come down to individual insight. And I think it's like as an employee, it's just remembering that you are the culture because culture is people and it's all about we are creating it one person at a time. Each of us is creating that culture. And so I think it's trusting the voice, you know, trusting your instinct as Charlie saying it's like having leaders that are open to being challenged and it's also having us as employees being able to challenge and to to use our voice as well, positively knowing that actually it's all kind of employee right there is part of that because we all creating culture together is co-creation. And I think it's breaking down that barrier and that wall of like employer/employee and actually just having us in that space is like, this is our organisation, our space and our potential in here. And I just think the other thing is just is absolutely being kind to, to ourselves and each other and just remembering that sometimes it's very easy going with great resignation. I'm saying disrupt and change is to just move from one to the next to the next. And sometimes we're just moving away from things. This is the time when change is good and there's time when we're just moving away from discomfort. And John Gottman, who's a relationship guru, sort of said like 69% of all problems in any relationship team or whatever are perpetual. So sometimes we might think moving is the solution, but we're just taking our bag with us, our bag of problems to the next place. So I think there's a little bit of us all owning a role in this as well. And sometimes it's staying and and having the courage or courageous leadership to work things through as well. So it's like trusting yourself, trust your instinct, but also calling on yourself when you're not supporting yourself or your team-mates or your organisation positively as well. Thank you so much both.

Emma [00:35:01] That was a great conversation about the great resignation. And I think the summary is it's real, it's happening, it's global. And, you know, Charlie said COVID has been a time machine for the future in terms of work. And, you know, if I think about, you know, what we were talking about with Charlie and Biba, you know, I think they were saying if you really want to attract new and diverse talent and most importantly retain it, values should be lived and not eliminated. And I think that's just a fantastic quote. You know, if your culture's not great, no matter how much free beer there is, that's actually not going to cut it for the future of work. And, you know, Charlie was talking about trying new initiatives and trying to reimagine what the world of work could be like in the future. And some of those new initiatives might not be a success. But that's okay as well. And it sounds like, you know, there's lots of exciting times ahead both for members and the initiatives that they're doing and also Biba and her work in terms of helping other clients. And that brings us to the end of this Architects of Change episode brought to you by Mambu. Thank you to my two guests today, Charlie Johnson and Biba Binotti. If you'd like to delve more into this topic and see more of Charlie's work, please head to mambu.com/insights. And if you want to follow more of Biba's work, please head to globalwarriors.com. For more podcasts, including the latest episode on financial literacy. Head to wherever you get your podcasts and don't forget to subscribe to our channel so you don't miss an episode. I've been your host, Emma Lindley. I'll see you next time.